An Inside Look Into Bitcoin Certifications with Jessica Levesque

Transcript

sure why

um I'm Jessica Levesque I'm the

executive director at C4 which is short

for the cryptocurrency certification

Consortium which is clearly a mouthful

which is why we go by C4 and we're a

non-profit we've been around since 2014

and our focus is on education standards

and certification thank you Jessica for

that introduction and it's always fun to

have women on the Pod because like I

told you off air

um women have a very unique perspective

in this ecosystem and I think it's truly

important it's lacking but with

individuals such as yourself you give

inspiration to other women out there to

kind of build on this ecosystem and you

know put their best foot forward and

Jessica the first question I wanted to

ask you was you know what inspired you

to get into Bitcoin where did you learn

about it how are you orange pills

whether it was a person an event or even

an educational course that kind of got

you started yeah so I my history isn't

um anything that has to do with security

or finances I was a college professor

and then I moved I stayed in higher ed I

was an associate Dean and so I've always

loved education and then a friend of

mine who I had worked with at a previous

college she got into Bitcoin and she is

the one who I guess orange pilled me

because she was always talking about it

and I went to a meet-up actually where

she spoke and I spent the whole time

kind of ignoring the whole meet up

except for her part just to support her

and then I'd say like two years three

years later I was like why am I not

listening to this so it took me a while

so I think there's sometimes this

misunderstanding that you get orange

pilled and then you just fall down the

rabbit hole and that does happen for

some people but it's also okay if you're

sort of exploring trying to figure it

out it takes you a little bit longer but

yeah my first introduction was through a

friend who her name's Pamela Morgan she

wrote the book crypto asset inheritance

planning she's brilliant and I was very

lucky because I had support from her and

some other friends that I know who are

are very interested in Bitcoin and

ethereum and um they brought me in and I

really felt lucky that I could learn

from trusted experts people that I

already trusted because it is scary and

new to try something completely

different and out of your wheelhouse so

that intro was something that I feel

like gave me um it was really a gift yes

and I I think that your journey is so

interesting like I've traversed your

background a little bit and I just know

that you have a very high standard for

how you educate people your community

and I mean naturally I just think that

this position just fits you perfectly

you know it's like your wheelhouse

everything that you've done in your past

has accumulated into where you are right

now and it's just beautiful to see

um how people are adopting Bitcoin and

learning from people in different ways

like you know I have tons of guests on

this show and some people uh use books

to be orange pilled or they go to an

event or meet up but it's always

beautiful to hear like friends and

colleagues kind of orange peeling people

and having that

um social currency

um type of vibe when it comes to bitcoin

and I wanted to ask you Jessica like you

know there's tons of Bitcoin educational

platforms out there tons of

certifications out there but how does C4

get this right and what drove your

passion to actually educate people in

particular with Bitcoin yeah so why

don't I start with a little history of

um C4 and how we started to do education

so we started in 2014 because our

co-founders Joshua McDougall and Michael

Kirkland were already working in the

industry and they were trying to figure

out how to hire people who actually knew

how Bitcoin worked because it's pretty

easy to say oh I get it and to say a few

things and you sound like you know it

but do you really know it and I think

you've probably experienced this too

since you've been around for a while

there are people out there that

misrepresent themselves as being

knowledgeable and they're not actually

and so the exam the Bitcoin exam was

written by Michael and vitalik Buddha

and they were at a co-working space

together and this is before vitalik

created ethereum and they wrote the

first exam and this was in 2014 and it's

been reiterated on in many ways over the

years and it is now curated by a

volunteer committee and so it is sourced

from the community it is Community

Driven which I think is really important

but I came along in 2019 so I'd already

been working in the crypto space for a

few years I worked for Andreas

Antonopoulos doing education and um when

I moved over to C4 the first thing I had

to do as executive director was take the

CBP the certified Bitcoin professional

exam and I will tell you I was terrified

first of all I am not a great exam taker

second of all there's so much

information to know and I wasn't sure

where to get the correct information and

then the third piece is I was directly

taking it from the people I'd be

reporting to from the board and I was

like oh God if I fail

I'm going to feel so silly luckily I did

not fail but it made me realize that it

is difficult to I know a lot of people

say dyor do your own research and I

think that there is a benefit to that

because you have to make sure that

you're using trusted resources but at

the same time if you're pulling from all

of these different resources and you're

taking the time to curate your own

knowledge you're missing out on time

that you could be spending actually

learning and so to have somebody create

this educational content that somebody

else can use is I think a huge benefit

because then the time being spent is on

learning not on bringing resources

together for oneself so with that being

said one of the first things I did was

say to the Bitcoin committee that was

newly formed we need to come up with

some resources so there was already a

study guide which was awesome it's still

there it's open it's free anybody can

look at it but then we also created a

prep book and a course to prepare people

because rather than spending the time

trying to put this information together

instead they're spending the time

studying taking the exam and then going

out and actually using these skills in

the workforce and being able to prove

that they have this knowledge and I

think that's a much better use of time

and my thoughts on that I would say is

you know we live in such a litigious

society that you know there's so many

I don't want to say lawsuits but just

the crypto ecosystem Is So based around

you know the SEC and Gary ginsler and

some of these protocols where there's

people out here kind of promoting

cryptocurrencies or educating people on

cryptocurrencies to do a particular

um buy sell or trade and I just think

that when you have a solid foundation of

certification that kind of allows people

that are viewing you as an audience

member to kind of have a little bit more

confidence that what you're telling them

is actually true and then you're

following the guidelines of you know a

certification platform such as C4 that

has

um stringent uh policies and rules and

Educators that really know what they're

talking about such as yourself and I

will say this too Jessica that um when I

was studying for my exam there was a

couple things that I did that I felt

really helped me and it might help other

people in the audience which is

um there was a YouTube course that

Andreas Antonopoulos had kind of

prepping you for the exam I give that a

thumbs up because that was so helpful

for me like that was like yeah yeah and

then there was and and then there was

one that you had very recently where you

were talking about securing your Bitcoin

and keeping it safe that was extremely

helpful for me and I just think that

taking those or watching those per se in

conjunction with having the prep exam

it's like a straight shot and I just

wanted to thank C4 and yourself for

bringing that exam to light because it

really has helped me as a podcaster and

a YouTuber that when I talk about

Bitcoin I have some validity and

certification to back up exactly what

I'm talking about when it comes to

bitcoin I love that and I do love that

um the information was brought together

by a bunch of different people with

different experiences and different

belief systems so that it is as unbiased

as I think you can get that's my opinion

which is obviously biased but um I do

think it's important that it is brought

together for from people who have

different understandings of the

technology and different thoughts on

what it can be used for because if it's

just one person's perspective if you're

proving your knowledge based on one

person's point of view of what knowledge

is important then you could be missing a

ton of other key pieces of knowledge so

I think that the way that this was

created is really important and the exam

is well I should back up the exam was

created and then the content based on it

so you will have everything you need to

know to pass the exam but it's not like

here's content that you should just know

and study for to pass it's actually

usable it's things that you'll come

across that you'll be after it'll be

brought up that you do want to know and

feel like you have that proof of

knowledge College which is for me why I

maintain my CBP I actually just got an

email yesterday or the day before saying

that I needed to renew it soon and which

I will be doing so but it I my first

thought was oh gosh how much has it

changed and do I am I prepared still and

I thought well that's a kind of a good

question which is the whole point of it

will I pass I assume so

um but I do think that there's always

that question do I know everything

that's going on right now and this is

the way to prove it to ourselves and

kind of it's like that little like

um you know feather in your cap that you

really do get something yes and you know

this this question might be subjective

but what are the benefits of being a

certified Bitcoin professional of course

everybody has a different approach and a

different way of answering that but I

just want to hear your personal

perspective on what do you think the

benefits of having a certification would

be yeah well for me personally when I

first got mine I was just like oh yes I

actually get it I and I I feel it gave

me this confidence that I didn't have

before I passed it I do know that though

that it also really benefits people that

are working in the professional

um not necessarily professionally in

crypto or in Bitcoin but working

professionally in a company where they

need to understand Bitcoin so for

lawyers for accountants for anybody who

is maybe like adjacent to bitcoin people

even working in traditional Finance it's

important to understand how this works

and that is something that it's

difficult to prove and one of the things

I love about our exam is the first part

of the exam is that you have to pay in

cryptocurrency so if you don't know how

to use crypto then you can't become a

certified Bitcoin professional and that

came about before I was a part of C4 and

I just think that it's a wonderful idea

to have that be that first test of

knowledge yes and I agree with that and

I've seen C4 floating around for a long

time a couple of years now and the first

person I knew that was certified was

Isaiah Jackson also known as Bitcoin say

when his book Bitcoin in Black America

came out I saw on the back of his book

that he was a certified Bitcoin

professional and I was like oh man I

definitely want to get that

certification and then I was like wait a

minute 99 in Bitcoin and at that time I

was like I'm not parting with my Bitcoin

I'm not giving anyone of my Bitcoin but

then as I've kind of evolved in the

ecosystem and understood the importance

of having a certification like I

mentioned earlier on parting with that

99 was easy for me because I understood

that that certification would gain me

more in value than the 99 so

um I agree with that I think that you

know I think that the certification

route is definitely needed especially

with all the fud and the disinformation

and misinformation that we're getting

from mainstream Media or just people

just speaking about crypto but they

haven't really proven that hey they know

how to use it and can pay with it and B

study take an exam in 20 minutes 75

questions in past so um C4 is doing a

great job on that front yeah thank you

and I think um I think you've talked

about this before maybe you and I just

did but we have short attention spans

and the exam is just 20 minutes and it's

pretty quick to go through and do it but

it's also a lot of content so either you

know it or you don't 100 questions in 20

minutes is it's rapid fire so you don't

have time to go and look up what is a

private key Either you know how it what

a private key is and how it works or you

don't so it's a quick way to prove that

knowledge and like you said it's 99 and

then you also pay a certification fee so

it comes to a total of 140 USD and you

will see other certifications out there

that are hundreds

um some courses are thousands of dollars

and the reason that our prices are so

much lower I mean our course is I think

sixty dollars it's because we believe

that Bitcoin should be accessible to

everyone and if you go to some countries

where there's High inflation or the

exchange rate it varies widely some of

these people can't afford it and I think

that that really negates the purpose of

Bitcoin so I don't see Bitcoin as

something that's just an investment I

see it as something that we can use and

can Bank the unbanked and really change

the world with it and if we don't have

the ability to provide resources to

those who probably need it a lot more

than those of us that live in the U.S

per se these people need access to these

resources which is why we have a lot of

our content for free on YouTube our

study guides free we give a lot of large

discounts out to people in countries or

locations where they can't afford our

exam costs because we really do just

want people to get certified and learn

about it and we also have the exam the

Bitcoin exam in Spanish as well same

thing with the prep book because we do

want this to be Universal and we talk

about decentralization how decentralized

are we if we're just doing something in

one language when we know that there is

not just one language in the world so I

think that that's really important as

well yes and I think that's what makes

C4 really different and Brilliant in my

opinion but uh the burning question I

have for you was you know the obvious

right you're a woman in this ecosystem

and seeing women in this ecosystem is

rare you have Lynn Alden and Natalie

klaminsky and some people that I really

um admire in the space and you're now

one of those people as well Jessica but

I really wanted to ask you like what was

your best lesson being the CEO for

Andreas and panopolis's organization ooh

the best lesson lesson I guess all of

the lessons that I learned from just

about how Bitcoin works and what it can

be used for one of the really fun

projects he's got a hardware wallet

course a demo and some Key Management

courses and I thought that that was

really fun to do because it's one of

those things where you learn about how

to use Bitcoin you might learn about how

to hold it in a wallet and how to use a

hardware wallet but it is difficult to

learn how to self-custody and many many

people choose to use an exchange or some

system where somebody else is actually

holding on to their Bitcoin so for those

listening as a reminder if you don't

hold your own private Keys your own

basically password and someone else does

then they lose them you lose access to

your Bitcoin that's on chain and so this

course I think was a really good

learning experience for me and helping

create it because there are a lot of

different new nuances things you might

not think about or realize and also that

we just forget it's impossible for

humans to retain all of the info you

need to know about things so to go back

and kind of refresh myself as we were

creating it that was really fun I think

that it was a unique experience and one

that I've taken with me because I still

need to know how to use a hardware

wallet and how to manage my private keys

and be safe with all that and we talked

for a minute about attention spans I

have a terrible one I have ADHD and for

many years I pretended like I didn't in

higher ed I sort of wouldn't share that

and I'm very lucky to be in a place now

where I feel like that's not something

to be ashamed of and being somebody that

has this wandering attention span I

recognize that the way that we educate

people about Bitcoin the way that we

educate people on how to use these

different tools for Bitcoin needs to be

done in a way that's accessible and

isn't here is a 12 hour long course and

don't you dare screw this up or that

it's like okay that's terrifying let's

start with the basis Basics let's walk

people through what you need to know and

take it gradually

um and get there in this like

intentionally edu

education focused way yes I love that

that's that's so on point you know and I

kind of have built up my podcast

episodes to be a certain length because

of that and you know not only for people

that have ADHD or some other things but

I just think that as we become more

technologically advanced it just

requires more of our attention to be

pulled in all these different directions

whether it's social media or AI or all

these other different things that we're

just consuming on a high level and

there's a lot of vacillation in this

industry as well where

um people are looking for verification

certification and of course I could just

jump on LinkedIn and say I'm a certified

Bitcoin professional put the logo there

and say I passed it on this month and it

expires on that month but I wanted to

ask you Jessica about something that I

think you would know about which is how

does C4 or does C4 better yet keep each

ID verified on a blockchain or somewhere

in a database that people can always go

back and prove um whether it was five or

six years ago that they passed this

certification and it's a legitimate

um you know certification that no one

can kind of manipulate or capitulate

right

so we don't have our shirts on chain

it's something that we've thought about

doing and maybe in the future right now

we have it in our own system and you can

look it up there is a cert ID number

um I will say that being a certified

Bitcoin professional means you

understand the knowledge that is listed

out in our study guide it doesn't mean

that you are the best investor you've

got this great advice so I always tell

people

any certification take it with a grain

of salt it may mean that they understand

this content or it does mean they

understand this content but it does not

mean that they're going to be able to

help you become a Bitcoin millionaire

and so you can definitely verify your

assert ID or somebody else's cert ID on

our website and I think the thing to

know too is that because technology

changes quickly in Bitcoin we know

changes less quickly than something like

ethereum and I don't say that in a

negative way Bitcoin and ethereum I'm

not a Bitcoin Maxi um Bitcoin and

ethereum have different purposes and

they both do that very well but they're

very different and Bitcoin changes in

some aspects more slowly and but it

still changes so we do need to keep

coming up with new content and then we

need to verify that people know the new

content so if you take the exam now in

two years is it going to be the exact

same absolutely not is it the same that

it was a year ago no and it shouldn't

because in 2009 the lightning Network

didn't exist so we couldn't have had it

in the exam if we'd started it then so

just making sure that's actually a

challenge that we have is keeping up

with what's changing and making sure

that it is in the exam and that then

you're able to verify the certificate ID

that someone has shown you and to

recognize that it was

the exam was taken in a somewhat recent

time period nice thank you for that

answer and I think all the crypto

blockchain people out there have just

been you know teaming at the gates to

know if like there was this on-chain

verification process for C4 I know I

definitely wanted to know that's why I

asked you but

um my last question for you Jessica is

you know the question that I think a lot

of people that take the certification

are really looking for which is jobs

right so what jobs are looking for

individuals with this C4 certification

and does C4 ever have

um alumni of the program end up being

teachers or advisors for C4 to help

other people

um become certified yeah so

um two questions there one was the jobs

and then um how does someone go from

being certified to maybe doing something

else with it so the job side of it

um it really depends on what you do like

I said there are people who just take it

because they want proof of knowledge

there are people who take it because

they want to be able to move up in their

companies and showing that you

understand how something works is great

if you're looking for a job and you're

competing against other people saying

that you understand how Bitcoin works

even in traditional Finance is something

that is looked upon in a way that maybe

people in Trad fire aren't like oh yes

we've got a bitcoiner but they might

there it's definitely turning around I

went to a conference this fall and there

were companies that you here in the news

that are not supporting Bitcoin and then

they show up at these conferences and

have all kinds of people on their team

so they're using Bitcoin too and they're

trying to adopt it as well so I think

having that certification that

designation proving that you get it

gives you a leg up and it's particularly

useful not necessarily for devs but for

somebody who's trying to work within

like we were talking about before

someone that is a lawyer or an

accountant or doing anything that

relates to crypto and you need to be

able to prove that you you can be the

expert on your team or at your company

and then you can be looked to for any

role that is related to it and as your

company likely will continue to adopt

Bitcoin and other cryptocurrency and web

3 facets that you're able to be that you

know that person and doesn't it feel

good to be that person that's like yeah

I know this and I can prove I know it

like that's such a important feeling I

think that we get to experience when we

learn something and approve that we've

understood it

um and then your second question was

um kind of the next steps if you're a

CBP is there something else is that what

you were getting at that you can do with

it in terms of C4 so I will say that all

all of our committee members have taken

the exams for the Committees that

they're on so our Bitcoin committee our

chair is Dirk Anderson who is an amazing

guy and he took he still takes the exam

so he he started like that and what we

do is as people take the exam if they

want to volunteer with C4 we have a form

on our website where people are able to

fill it out start to volunteer help us

create content or whatever it is that

they're

good at basically that relates to

bitcoin and then they're able to move

forward so for example our Bitcoin

committee isn't the same as it was a

year ago so we added Anita Posh she

wrote the book um learn earn Bitcoin

um and she's incredible she is um I

think she's in Zimbabwe currently trying

to bring lightning Network to

individuals there it's really amazing

but so

um she was brought on because she was

already interested in C4 was doing a

project with us and it kind of led to

that so when we say we're Community

Driven we mean it people who take the

exam prove their knowledge then show

that they're dedicated to education

standards certification and working with

C4 can start to become part of the

process to actually curate these exams

because again if it's just a couple

people who are doing this and they make

all the decisions it's not Community

Driven which goes against the ethos of

having peers involved in

this protocol and within this space yes

and you know having people like Andreas

Antonopoulos I'm not sure if he's on the

board of directors I forgot what his

role was with C4 but

um just for yes so so for me just like

looking at all of his videos and how

he's orange pills so many people I still

reference his videos from time to time

and I just think that he has this

blockchain cryptocurrency

um aspect down to a science and to see

someone's name on there like him it

really gives a lot of validity and

understanding to people in the ecosystem

to say okay I've read mastering Bitcoin

so I definitely know that if this course

is being kind of surveyed by someone

like Andreas that you know he's leading

Us in the right direction to be

certified and to be knowledgeable about

Bitcoin so um I think it's really

fascinating and awesome what C4 is doing

but uh Jessica to wrap this up I want to

thank you for having such an awesome

conversation with me I learned a lot

about what you're doing in the space and

what you're continuing to do in the

future but before we go can you give

people your social media handles and

anything else that you want to tell

people about C4 before we go

sure uh c4's website is crypto

consortium.org and our LinkedIn and um

Twitter and Instagram is learn more with

C4 learn from us we we want to increase

the knowledge in the space and increase

the number of people that are able to

prove that they understand how Bitcoin

Works yes definitely I agree with that

everybody go out check out c4's website

if you're interested in learning or

trying to be certified in these

particular Industries definitely look

into what they have going on I'm

certified I took the test I studied and

I passed so you definitely can pass

don't be scared or flummoxed that the

questions are too hard and just go out

there and continue to be the best people

you can be thank you Jessica thank you

so much this is great appreciate it

An Inside Look Into Bitcoin Certifications with Jessica Levesque

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